donate@home an Alpha Test Sub Project of GPUGRID

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Zydor
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donate@home an Alpha Test Sub Project of GPUGRID

Post by Zydor »

GPUGRID just started up a separate sub Project called donate@ home. URL is:

http://donateathome.org/

Project aim is to run Alpha Test WUs for the main GPUGRID Project. They have deployed it as a BOINC Project with normal credits et al, but they have crafted the WU output so that it is compatible with Bitcoin. Kind of a two birds with one stone thing. They get to run specialised Alpha Test WUs whilst designing new GPUGRID WUs, but at the same time have the chance for additional Project funding via Bitcoin.  If the latter nevers happens, frankly I think thats likely, its no big deal, the main aim is running specialised Alpha Test WUs.

The Project takes AMD & NVidia cards, NVidia 4XX, 5XX, & the upcoming Kepler range; AMD 5XXX, 6XXX &  7XXX;  will all definitely work.  Its possible AMD 4XXX will also, I am not sure - doubt is the usual one in this brave new world of OpenCL, that of limited support by 4XXX for OpenCL, could try and see what happens.

They have set the credit levels in the mid to high range for it, as sometimes work will run dry - but thats no big deal if you set a BOINC auto-back up Project. Currently I am getting:

7970s - 6250 per WU, completion times at present are 1864 seconds running at 1125/1375, equates to 290K daily RAC per GPU. Thats the pits for a 7970, and is as a result of the WUs at present being the first hack at new AMD orientated models and applications, it'll improve, but currently runs only at around 25% of what its capable of.

5970s - 6250 per WU, completion times at present are 1024 seconds per WU, equates to daily RAC of 527K per GPU running at 750/500, or 1.054m per day per 5970.

Its run by the usual GPUGRID folk, and the usual solid standard of WUs, even test WUs rarely fall over. Currently the Test WUs are running descrete routines checking out parts of proposed model and application programs. Its a quiet, purposeful kind of atmosphere about it, is the begining of very worthwhile crunching for Medical Science, and the start of another full blown outlet for AMD cards.

Its a nice one to join, with a real good end story of medical research, not just another set of numbers :)

Regards
Zy
UBT - Mikee
Marvin the Dalek
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Post by UBT - Mikee »

Definitely one to have a go at with the current credit award! My NVidia HD5670 is getting 6,250 per hour! Zydor has created a team and there's only the 2 of us!
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Zydor
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Post by Zydor »

Quick Update ...

Test WUs are running fine - recently hit an issue with many getting a flatlined WU once in a while, they are working on that. Its stable as such for an Alpha Test Project. First Credit Exports to Stats Sites (including credit award so far) are expected by end this week/next Monday at the latest - no reason to doubt that, the Project Leader (GDF) is a stand up guy, and usually runs things well..

Credit wise - for those watching a Credit Budget/Credit Target - its without doubt the top paying Project for ATI cards (any Project frankly), NVidia cards are much slower, the latter was expected as the overflying aim there is to get - in particular - an ATI app running at GPUGRID.  don't get the wrong impression, NVidia run fine, just don't expect the same credit level at present - that may change as the Project proceeds as they are moving towards common applications for red and green team cards like all other BOINC Projects.

The WUs at present are - litterally - test WUs, not GPUGRID test models. They are using them to gain experiemce with ATI cards, and you can see a very detailed Stderr giving masses of detail for the developers.

All in all a tight Project, excellent developers, and pleasent atmoshpere as you usually get from the GPUGRID crowd.

By the way - UK BOINC Team is currently third over there and chasing down the French, my favourite Team Target rofl - a couple more of us crunching there and we'll have them :)

Regards
Zy
Jeffers
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Post by Jeffers »

I've joined up... let's see if that helps the team progress
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Zydor
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Post by Zydor »

They have hit a WU problem - there is increasing WU flatlining and no progress when running. Its not prevelent, but enough to be annoying. They have a new version in the wings nearly ready to go which *should*  fix that.

Until the new one comes, keep your eyes open for flatlined WUs showing stopped or no progress, if one is seen abort it, and carry on with a new one.

Other than that hickup, its going well at present.

Regards
Zy
Jeffers
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Post by Jeffers »

I've had an odd issue with it. Got a message from their server saying it needed more disk space on my computer. It was asking for another 178Mb, but Boinc manager said there was over 700Mb available... I've upped the threshold anyway, as I've got plenty of space. Oh, and Donate has also been issuing messages;-  "14/02/2012 20:19:47 | Donate@Home | This computer has reached a limit on tasks in progress"
Dunno what that's about. I have gotten some credit from them, though, so something's working. It hasn't made it onto the stats page yet though....
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Zydor
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Post by Zydor »

Jeffers wrote:... Got a message from their server saying it needed more disk space on my computer. It was asking for another 178Mb, but Boinc manager said there was over 700Mb available... I've upped the threshold anyway, as I've got plenty of space.
That one is down to BOINC not the Project, they still havent quite nailed the disc space checking routine. It can also be caused by the total disc space ALLOCATED (never mind actually used) exceeding the disc space actually on disc.

eg:
Disc space free 20Gb
Max disc space allocated (remember there are three different scenarios to calculate BOINC disc reservation -- biggest is usually "XX% of Disc max") 24Gb

In that example disc space allocated to BOINC exceeds actual disc space free, and you will get an error message. Whether that happened to you, no idea, but its a common cause of confusion with disc space.
..Oh, and Donate has also been issuing messages;-  "14/02/2012 20:19:47 | Donate@Home | This computer has reached a limit on tasks in progress"
Thats down to the Project. On the BOINC Project Server there is a parameter where Project Staffs set the maximum WUs you are allowed to crunch each day - the Daily Quota. Its used to control run-away hosts who are only erroring out WUs in seconds flat, in the latter cases a PC can zap tens of thousands a day unless restrained. Happens with lazy users or unattended hosts. In the earlier days of a Project that value gets tweeked as Projects Staffs settle down with WU size and time to complete. In fact a few hours ago they raised it at Donate from 63 a day to 150, so you shouldnt get that any more
It hasn't made it onto the stats page yet though....
They first started exporting stats to the Project Stats directory for pickup by Stats Sites yesterday. I put up a notice in Willie's New Project Forum yesterday that they were now exporting, so I would have thought he would set BOINCStats for first pick up by Daily Stats Weds, but likely Thursday at the outside.  AllProjects already show them - however a member of their Project Staff crunch's at Donate, and as soon as he saw they were exporting, set AllProjects for pickup, so they appeared quickly there. Nip over to AllProjects for now until Willie has his first pickup run if you want to see them as at .... whenever. Donate have a few hours ago tweeked the export settings, and they will export to the stats directory at Donate every eight hours so bare that in mind in terms of currency of data when Willie starts his pickups.

Regards
Zy
Temujin
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Post by Temujin »

Willy at Boincstats has stated he probably won't be supporting Donate@Home
Donate@home will probably not be added to the stats. Only real projects which do not discard the results of a computation will be added to BOINCstats. "Projects" which have no use other than to generate bitcoins/money will not be added.

Don't get me wrong, I can understand why donate@home exists, but I find it questionable that credit is granted for this. Allowing this will certainly lead to more bitcoin projects competing with each other by granting more and more credit and thereby displacing regular useful projects. Essentially, now there is a way to monetize YOUR computing time, it just goes into other peoples pockets. And that may not always be bona fide BOINC projects.

If projects really would like to generate bitcoins, I suggest they just add a separate application to their existing project site and not grant credit for it.

Also, "creating" money this way is highly inefficient. It would be much better to just donate some money instead of generating bitcoins. The real money they get for it is worth less then the electricity used to generate the bitcoins.

All this is not only my point of view but is shared by the BOINC team.

There is a lengthy discussion going on about projects like this and what to do with them in the mailing list. When that discussion ends I will make a final decision
Boincstats forum post here
Zydor
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Post by Zydor »

I will make a final decision
I have already made mine - its utter stupidity, they don't understand the nature of Bitcoins. To even imagine its "making money" any more than other BOINC Projects do is silly. Any BOINC Project that provides resource frees up cash that can be used elsewhere in the taget organisation. There is no difference, only imaginary drama by short sighted individuals.

I certainly accept it can be abused, so can BOINC - however, to blanket ban its use is a nonsense as it disadvantages not-for-profits. If they ban this it breaks their own terms and conditions of an Open Source Licence, and finally opens the door to open moralising by BOINC over what we can and can't crunch. That is not their place to be under the terms of the Open Source Licence, as long as the use to which it is put is legal. As for dumping calculations as a reason .... Piffle .... they can't even think up a good excuse.

Last but by no means least .... they refused to act when a Site opened up who's aim was to break the software of a Commercial Product, yet they have the termerity to moralise not-for-profits. I hope common sense prevails, if it doesnt I am about to throw a decade of BOINC'ing out the window - I will not pandy to amateur medlling in my morals - I am perfectly capable of deciding what is a moral question and what is not, and I don't need DA playing mummy, its not his place to be.

Thats a mild version ..... I feel very angry about this, its sticking their noses where they should not be, at the same time as ignoring a clearly illegal use of BOINC as they did recently. The Hypocracy is mind blowing, I don't spend the time and cash I have and do to get that kind of nonsense in return.

Should it go against Donate I will resign from the Team to avoid any awkward situations for the Team. The latter is unlikely, me stopping use of BOINC is hardly likely to bring it crashing to its knees,  but if I exit BOINC it will be quietly and with good grace - something DA needs to learn  in his more dictatorial modes.

Regards
Zy
UBT - Rick Horn
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Post by UBT - Rick Horn »

If the BOINC admins don`t understand the true meaning of bitcoins, then I have every sympathy with them. After reading details of the project, I have not the faintest idea what bitcoins are, or what the project`s aims are.

I have joined the project, but will not be contributing any credits until I get a clearer picture of what is going on.
UBT-mark3346
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Post by UBT-mark3346 »

Cannot say I understand "bitcoins" and having skimmed through this 9 page article am none the wiser

http://bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf

Willy at Boincstats
Allowing this will certainly lead to more bitcoin projects competing with each other by granting more and more credit and thereby displacing regular useful projects
Projects already have different credit levels so whats new there then?

Useful projects, as decided by who?

The medical profession would probably only regard projects that are involved in medical research as useful.
Those with vision would want only SETI to exist as the potential to change the world rests with this project alone.
As a green the only useful project is CPDN.
As a travelling representative the loss of the TSP project was a disaster.
etc etc

Nearly forgot the rendering projects.
Zydor
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Post by Zydor »

This is going to be a long post; I hope I took the right "tack" with it, as Bitcoin is HUGELY complex. So many simplifications are employed :) Please bare with me as the whole picture needs understanding, not a glib one off paragraph.

General

The whole premise behind Bitcoin, is it is an alternate form of currency replacing traditional Bank Transactions. It has the support of the Banking industry in its aims, and Bitcoins are quoted by various international exchange trading agencies. They retain a Market driven value, and can be exchanged for other currencies. Their value can be volatile, and speculators - surprise surprise - have been known to target them, like they do other currencies. In fact at one point there was a famous crash in their value, that drove it to near zero after a few million electronic Bitcoin were stolen from an electronic respository. Overall therefore it can be volatile. The famous theft and crash is outlined in :

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-13857192

A typical Bitcoin exchange is at:

https://mtgox.com/

Wikipedia Entry: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bitcoin

What Bitcoin Does
We are all so used to how we pay for things, we *tend* to lose sight of what is actually happening. A payment Transaction consists of three parts:

1.  Party A pays the Bank
2. The Bank revives the payment, deducting value from Party A, and holds the money whilst organising payment to party B
3. Party B receives the money from the Bank.

Third Party Transaction Model
It’s known as a "Trusted Third Party Transaction". ie the Banks are trusted to hold the cash and pass it to the one entitled to receive it. The model has grown up over the Centuries as a way of getting payment to individuals especially in the days when travel and communications were impossible/very hard. Sometimes taking weeks to get the money to them. These days of course, the "transmission" of money is fast due to the computer driven technologies. However, all that happen was the Trusted Third Party Model was - eventually - made electronic. No attempt to create a new Transaction model was made.

Now think of what is happening. Actually what we want is the ability  for Party A to pay direct to Part B the money owed. In a transaction, there is no need for a Bank. In the Bitcoin model, when a payment transaction is released it is utterly irreversible, no one can ever reverse a payment. If an error  is made by Party A, they can’t get money back unless Party B issues a transaction to repay them.

The Age of the Internet and computers has made this direct model possible. After all why pay a Bank to make transactions, as long as the transaction is guaranteed, it only adds cost to everyone to use a huge Banking infrastructure. Banks are happy enough, the biggest cost they have is maintaining Transaction infrastructure, they would close that in a heartbeat if another system replaced it.

However ...... to do that electronically is massively, unbelievably complex, I'll cover that below. There are problems with it at present as the concept has a long way to go and devlop working through all the issues that lot causes. But essentially it "1984" and Big Brother in spades where "credits" are transferred as payments. At present there is much to do to make Bitcoin transparent and workable. It does have the support of the Banks, and Bitcoins can be used today to pay for goods and services over the Biotcoin network.

The Nature of Bitcoins
To go through the detail is massively sleep inducing, its so incredibly complex many serious programmers can get set back a pace by it. So only a "concept" is described below. Essentially the system works by "blocks" spinning round the network, and the block passes across the transaction value as it arrive at each recipient. When it gets there, the recipient adds a string - a laaaarge string - of numbers to a part of the block as an identifier. At each transaction point more numbers are added, and so on. The numbers are a form of encryption that serve both to protect (kind of encrypt) the transaction, and to make it impossible to electronically break into the actual transaction - to date it’s never been done. The famous crash this year was a recipients local Bitcoin repository, not transaction stealing.

Whilst all this is going on, Bitcoin add "hashes" to each block. There are a fixed amount, I believe it’s around 22 million, the number will never change. The Hashes have a fixed value of 50 Bitcoins. People/organisations are encouraged to try and solve a Block to find the Hash. When they do, they get 50 Bitcoins as reward. The reason for this, is the Bitcoin Network gets more secure the more transactions flow, including the Block searchers, as more numbers get added to each block - the searching for hashes is the resilience and encryption mechanism, the more searches, the more resilient the network to outside computer attack.

What then happened is individuals started looking for Bitcoin Hashes with their own Computer, after all the early days a Bitcoin was worth £10-£15 - so a reward of 50 of those was pretty chunky. As computers became more powerful it became harder to find a hash. The reason is the network adjusts to the find and makes its harder to resolve a block - ie its self healing and self protection. You don’t need a Bank to guarantee the payment. This gradual increase in difficulty, meant searchers gathered together into "Hunt the Has" Groups, sharing the reward when found. All good, its increased network activity, and made the whole algorithm protecting actual transactions harder to resolve - impossible in fact. As long as there are more honest transactions flowing, than dishonest attackers, it can’t be broken - hence the Hash incentive, the latter keeps transactions high, and can’t be attacked.

Bitcoin and BOINC
Enter the BOINC  Hash finders at Donate@Home :)

BOINC software is perfect for a Hash Hunting Group. WUs do the searching, Block resolving, and Hash finding Crunchers crunch WUs in the time honoured fashion. When hash's are found (two were found in the first week of Donate@Home, they received 100Bitcoinc, which at today’s rate of exchange is about £500 in total - that was with only around 100 crunchers. Extrapolate that to a larger number (say 2,000) and what may be achieved over a month or a year :)

The aim  of Donate@Home is to find these Hashes and pay for an additional researcher (that around $20,000 a year’s needed for that, probably around 60 to 70 hashes to fund that - easily in reach of a Volunteer Hash finder group. Hence their astonished delight when the Volunteer BOINC crunchers got two in the first week!

They are also using this as a medium to train themselves on AMD Software so they can design better AMD based models (remember they are traditional NVidia CUDA, but they want to include AMD cards).

The Controversy
Leave aside the work needed in the  long term for complete viability of the Bitcoin system, the work still to be done is massive, to make it a viable long term replacement currency and global Transaction facility ( so far its getting the Banks thumbs up approval, and they are guaranteeing transactions where needed - it saves the Banks a fortune). Right now, there is the opportunity to find these hashes and blocks with hash hunter groups, and  It'll be like that for at least our lifetimes, likely forever in the self healing nature of the systems "encryption" software.

So is it all ethical for BOINC? That’s the rub of it. Simplistic attitudes have spawned simplistic reactions - "its cash - cash is bad for BOINC - therefore Bitcoin is bad for BOINC - Bitcoin is Bad".

Few ever give much thought to the nature of BOINC Volunteer computing. Antoine who believes we give our services meeting a need that can’t otherwise be filled, and is therefore a "cashless" form of giving is very naive. Any organisation with an infrastructure, who gets BOINC Project Assist, is well capable of diverting funds from that facility and using it for other things, ie essentially BOINC is a form of cash donation at its bottom line. Even in pure research.  Some things would never get done if where not for BOINC - absolutely - that does not negate the fact that BOINC in majority of cases is in effect a form of cash donation - it’s just that no cash passes between donor and receiver.

All that happens with BOINC Hash Hunters is the proceeds go to the supporting Project. Do we need safeguards on disclosure and accounts - that’s for sure - but that’s not impossible nor is it onerous. The Crunchers know full well how many hashes they find, and if the Project don’t account for them - crunchers walk. So, as long as it’s done by reputable organisations all is well.

What if they are dishonest .... well... in that case they can be banned, crunchers will discover it easily enough. Banning use of OpenSource software is legal, if its use is itself illegal. So no problem.

The End ROFL:)
That, you will be delighted to know by now, is Bitcoin and BOINC ...... and I assure you it’s a very very compressed explanation that would make a Bitcoin Expert scream in pain. But it gives the concept, and where BOINC fits in. Can you shoot theoretical holes in BOINC use of it, yeah dead easy because the core system is hugely complex, all a mischievous moaner has to do is press a few emotive buttons, and Toilet Rumour Control does the rest. That’s is what has just happened when it all blew up inside BOINCLand on the onset of Donate@Home, cynics have a field day assuming that they are the only ones with common sense and knowledge - very irritating.

At the heart of BOINCLand there is no issue, it does not violate BOINC principles of giving goods and services to aid others, it just does it in a different way. It’s transparent, easy to do, and is a win-win all round.

You make think differently and think BOINC should not do this, and that’s cool, but at least do so with the full facts to hand not emotive half spoon fed toilet rumour initiated by drama seekers. Also do so in the knowledge that opposition breaks the very core of the Open Software Licence agreement that BOINC operates under .......

.. and contrasts with the refusal by BOINC to shut down a blatantly illegal site whose aim was to break commercial proprietary code - it took external non BOINC pressure to shut it down.

To learn more - Google is your friend and start by Googling "Bitcoin" - and get drowned in references to look up.

Regards

Zy
UBT - Mikee
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Post by UBT - Mikee »

For those that care(!)

Donate is currently giving out ludicrous credits at the moment - I'm getting 6,250 credits for 96 seconds run time!

[edit]
Change that to 'was' - the latest one I have seems to be back to normal now - shame!  :twisted:
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Zydor
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Post by Zydor »

You mercenary you ... rofl  :toothy10:

Regards
Zy
Zydor
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Post by Zydor »

Update since Willy has now ok'd Donate's stats on BOINCStats.

There is a new Windows based Application out (test615), it has been very successful so far, and solid as a rock, no crashes, no blue screens, no (known) memory leaks, and goes very efficiently. 615 has also just been extended out to NVidia cards. To date 5 Bitcoin Hashes have been solved by the Project - hopefully the rate of discovery will pick up again now the BOINCStats impediment to participation has been removed.

I suspect there will be a credit reallignment at some point so that the Project is not too far removed from other GPUGRID efforts ... so if motivations are pure credit and no more, go fill your boots now, I don't know when the Project will realign the credits. At present it is without doubt the highest credit pay Project out there.

7970s have started appearing in BOINCLand in increasing numbers, the new app, test615, takes advantage of the new 79XX architecture and is now in the region of 30% faster for 79XX, than app test611, quite apart from no losses due to crashes et al.

Matt has already commented on the Project Forum re Linux based, and at present he didnt sound hopeful in terms of speed for Linux machines due to specific Linux/Compiler issues. The Windows based app is however flying, so fill your boots whilst you can.

AMD cards remain at an advantage - nature of the beast - however the credit award for NVidia cards is not too shabby if you are also culturally committed to the Project, not just the Credits. Do not translate the success of test615 automatically to NVidia, check first as NVidia will perform worse than AMD on this, and its individual choice whether thats worth it or not with NVidia cards.

Regards
Zy
Zydor
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Post by Zydor »

Another key update for those not there yet  ....

Matt was on the forum tonight, an XP based app is on its way, he's hoping "in a few days" - reality maybe different, as always these things are ready when they are ready, but Matt is good ..... impressive programmer ..... so reckon maybe by the weekend coming would not be impossible. See what happens ...

No more news re Linux, it does run, but performance is not great as yet. I'll update for Linux users if I see anything.

Regards
Zy
Zydor
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Post by Zydor »

An hour ago they released an application for Linux. I do not know its performance level yet ( I don't have Linux), but will try to spot a Linux user and see what they turn up.

Meanwhile, maybe worth a spin on one WU to see how it goes.

Regartds
Zy
Zydor
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Post by Zydor »

6970 on Linux .... 975secs average per WU, for 5900 credits per WU.

That appears to be well up to speed for a 6970 (in Donate Project terms), so maybe worth a go for linux users to see how it goes.

Regards
Zy
Zydor
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Post by Zydor »

The Donate@Home Server went through a sizeable upgrade today, and is much more stable - no glitches at all so far in the last 5 hours.

As long as Murphy is also on a break ...... its looking good for stability which has been a past issue.

Regards
Zy
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