Bitcoin Utopia Credit Controversy

The section for those minor projects that are around, such as CAS@home, Yafu, Yoyo@home and also including those that are "non-intensive", such as GoofyxGrid, WUProp, which can both be run in the background.
Post Reply
myshortpencil
SETI.USA member
Posts: 40
Joined: Wed Nov 19, 2008 12:00 am

Bitcoin Utopia Credit Controversy

Post by myshortpencil » Fri Oct 24, 2014 4:30 pm

The Czechs are angry. (From http://lists.ssl.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo: The boinc project mailing list).  I'm thinking about doing a few billion credits for CNT :)
On Oct 22, 2014, at 6:41 PM, David Anderson <davea@ssl.berkeley.edu> wrote:

Dušan:

I agree with much of what you say.
I created BOINC with the goal of helping scientific research.
BOINC has been funded almost entirely by the U.S. National Science Foundation;
they fund BOINC in order to support science, in particular American science.
If BOINC's contribution to science declines (as it has been)
this support will end at some point.

At the same time, I've never tried to limit how BOINC can be used,
and it's been used in various ways that I didn't intend:
- industrial research (AQUA@home from DWAVE systems)
- prime-number and crypto applications by hobbyists
- public/for-profit use (Charity Engine)
- in-house use within companies
- Bitcoin Utopia
I've provided technical support for these projects, including BU.

I don't think what BU is doing is immoral
(although I agree it's pointless and a waste of energy).
The main problem with BU is credit.
Credit is supposed to measure FLOPs,
and they grant credit for something that's not FLOPs.
The long-term solution is for them to grant credit separately: see
http://boinc.berkeley.edu/trac/wiki/CreditGeneralized

The short-term solution is for the cross-project statistics sites to not include BU.
I strongly recommend this.
I suggest that you and other team founders contact the admins
of these sites and urge them to do that.

-- David
On 22-Oct-2014 11:57 AM, cnt@czechnationalteam.cz wrote:
Dear Sir/Madam,


I would like to address the leaders of main BOINC teams and Mr. David Anderson as
well, as I have been appointed to lead the discussion regarding the project Bitcoin
Utopia.

We have recently been watching the current events with the project of BOINC with
great dissatisfaction.

The recent events that have been damaging the whole BOINC, degrading the results of
dozens of projects for more than last ten years and demotivating common users.

We would like to appeal as follows:

1.

Distributed computing was based on using the residual computer power/output for
human progress in many fields of scientific research. During many years,
hundreds of thousands people have joined the project and the possibility to
compare the performance within the projects has been one of the biggest
advantage of the BOINC system.

Rating each of the project has been so far in some bounds and there has not been any
degradation in credit in global statistics there. Even after computations coming on
GPU, the evaluation still corresponded with hardware increasing in output and a lot
of projects are still taking advantage of that.

But the Project Bitcoin Utopia is out of any standards having been built several
years. Its evaluation exceeds several times compare to other BOINC projects. The
statistic data, having been gathered in many years, is completely destroyed and it
does not have any sense.

During several weeks of running the ASIC devices the total credit from Bitcoin
Utopia is 1/3 to other BOINC projects and this rate is continuously increasing.


2.

The aim of the project is not useful. Neither for scientific purposes nor for
mankind at all.

It is just a commercial project that does not have any sense in the system of BOINC.

Firstly, the founders of the project are the only one who have the biggest profit
from it and they make a profit with a disproportion to the owners of BC pools.

Secondly, funding provided to the projects is also very controversial.

Funding flowing to the projects is lower than expenditures on the energy used.

From this point of view I am asking: “ What is that project useful for in the
system of BOINC? Why should we, thanks to it, let the whole system of BOINC destroy ? ”

3.

Evaluation of the project might be the main problem. Conducted work on the
project of Bitcoin Utopia as far as power/output is several times higher
comparing to CPU or GPU. But it is not the output in FLOPS that the rate has
been calculated in BOINC so far. The same over evaluation could have been used
in any other projects such as QCN, for example, or the project Radioactive and
by this way to bound to frequency of tremors on the measured radiation – just to
make up whatever and then give reasons for that.

The same way, for example, we should provide some bonus in our project Asteroid for
its users who then can find a model of ideal asteroid.

Is there any use for BOINC?

The owners of the projects have always kept some moral rules so far and they have
been in some devaluation bounds in their evaluation.


Let’s do something together so that we will stop this devaluation activities of
Bitcoin Utopia, retroactively reset to a natural level or just remove the project
from global statistics at BOINCSTATS or FREE-DC.

Let’s make some clear rules for future.

Nobody wants to devaluate our long term activities and effort, to discourage
longstanding users and to suppress or even to destroy the whole BOINC .


Dear colleagues, before your replying to this appeal, try to consult the matter
first within your team and do not express just your personal opinion on that.

Try to express the opinion of the whole team, like I am doing right now here on
behalf of Czech National Team o.p.s.



With Kind Regards,


Dušan Vykouřil

director of Czech National Team o. p. s.

UBT - Mikee
Marvin the Dalek
Posts: 4216
Joined: Wed Mar 15, 2006 12:00 am
Location: North Wales

Post by UBT - Mikee » Fri Oct 24, 2014 5:58 pm

Hi Jerry

This looks very suspect.

Who is cnt@czechnationalteam.cz ? (I assume CNT is short for Czech national team) Just been to the Czech site and can't find any relevent reference, the last instance refering to Bitcoin appears to be Sept 3rd.

If this person is addressing the leaders of the BOINC teams this should have been sent to Tim direct - I'm assuming this hasn't been done as I'm sure he would have passed it onto the members! Just had a look at the SETI.USA site and there's nothing obvious there either.

Mike
Follow us on Twitter... http://twitter.com/UKBOINCTeam

Image Image

Image

myshortpencil
SETI.USA member
Posts: 40
Joined: Wed Nov 19, 2008 12:00 am

Post by myshortpencil » Fri Oct 24, 2014 7:47 pm

Hi Mike,

I posted what I could.  It appears this forum has character count limitations and perhaps time limitations.  The full post is at http://www.dunadd.co.uk/seti/forum/view ... 846#p22845.  It is a complaint from Dušan Vykouřil, director of Czech National Team o. p. s., and a reply from David Anderson <davea@ssl.berkeley.edu> .  It was posted on a BOINC mailing list at http://lists.ssl.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo.

The full post is also available for members only at http://www.setiusa.us/showthread.php?77 ... #post88790

myshortpencil
SETI.USA member
Posts: 40
Joined: Wed Nov 19, 2008 12:00 am

Post by myshortpencil » Fri Oct 24, 2014 7:51 pm

^

There's the complete post.  The preview screen didn't work, so I assumed it would not post correctly.  This time I just submitted it without a preview and it posted without any problems.

Jerry

UBT - Timbo
UBT Forum Admin
Posts: 8176
Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2006 12:00 am
Location: NW Midlands
Contact:

Post by UBT - Timbo » Fri Oct 24, 2014 8:09 pm

Hi all,

@Jerry - I deleted your second posting, after first pasting it into your first post - hope that's OK.

re: BU credits.
The "argument" about BU has been raging on the BU forums too....and I'm pretty sure that other forums have had user feedback too.

My issue is with DA and his attitude about credits. At the end of the day, everyone who crunches on BOINC is trying to help do their little bit...and with lots of people getting involved, it's a great resource for projects to get involved with.

But there has been a tailing off of people joining BOINC...interest is waning and I think by stimulating people with new and exciting ways to earn credits can bring more people into the fold.

It's like the early days with CPDN and huge credits could be earned. :)

So, if DA just thinks that this project can stand still, then he shouldn't have allowed GPU's to upset the apple cart in the first place. Now we have ASIC's and at some point maybe some other type of device that can also do a better job than CPU's or GPU's.

So, please Mr Anderson - let BOINC evolve and let's get more people interested and if it means giving away loads of credits, then so be it....after all, every BU cruncher is giving away (virtual) money to relevant (quite low key) campaigns and one in particular, MilkyWay needs donations to keep going - as they aren't financed by USA govt.

Just my 2c's ;)

regards
Tim

myshortpencil
SETI.USA member
Posts: 40
Joined: Wed Nov 19, 2008 12:00 am

Post by myshortpencil » Sat Nov 01, 2014 7:13 pm

http://stats.free-dc.org/stats.php?page=boincteams

Free-DC stats now includes a Combined Teams total credit score without bitcoin link.  To which I ask, where's the Combined Teams total credit score without GPU?

UBT - Timbo
UBT Forum Admin
Posts: 8176
Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2006 12:00 am
Location: NW Midlands
Contact:

Post by UBT - Timbo » Sat Nov 01, 2014 7:24 pm

myshortpencil wrote:http://stats.free-dc.org/stats.php?page=boincteams

Free-DC stats now includes a Combined Teams total credit score without bitcoin link.  To which I ask, where's the Combined Teams total credit score without GPU?
Hi Jerry,

I think them doing this is a sensible compromise....

As for the GPU stuff, I don't think the projects who offer BOTH CPU and GPU tasks have ever separated them out, statistics wise.....so, for MilkyWay, Einstein, Asteroids etc etc they just group them all together.

I know the stats can be tweaked to show which processor contributed, but I'm not sure if it can also show the GPU?

http://boincstats.com/en/stats/-1/host/breakdown/cpu/p

So, if the stats aren't available, I can't see that they can show them... :(

But for completeness, it would be good if they can ;)

regards
Tim

UBT - Chris
UBT Contributor
Posts: 601
Joined: Tue Nov 05, 2013 12:00 am

Post by UBT - Chris » Sun Nov 02, 2014 2:30 pm

what has happened with the BU credits?

UBT - Timbo
UBT Forum Admin
Posts: 8176
Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2006 12:00 am
Location: NW Midlands
Contact:

Post by UBT - Timbo » Sun Nov 02, 2014 2:58 pm

UBT - Chris wrote:what has happened with the BU credits?
Hi Chris,

I think this is the answer you are looking for:

The problem with "BU" credits, is that David Anderson, the head honcho of BOINC doesn't think it right that a project can offer enormous credits, when someone uses an external device, like an ASIC, when there's little correlation between the crunching power of a CPU or GPU vs an ASIC.

As such, there's been a huge change in the relationship between every other BOINC project and BU...simply because for a very small outlay, you can generate massive credits on BU, and yet you cannot do this on any other project.

Hence the credits now are quite "slanted" in that if you want to do well in the credits race, then you should use an ASIC and crunch BU work-units.

And of course, all the teams that are vying for a high ranking position are now all doing some BU tasks...including UBT !! If we didn't we'd get left well behind.

regards
Tim
Last edited by UBT - Timbo on Mon Nov 03, 2014 6:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Woodles
Active UBT Contributor 20+ yrs
Posts: 10834
Joined: Thu Dec 20, 2007 12:00 am
Location: Cambridgeshire

Post by Woodles » Sun Nov 02, 2014 3:08 pm

UBT - Timbo wrote:... when there's little correlation between the crunching power of a CPU or GPU vs an ASIC
Actually, that's part of the problem. Calculations have been done that show BU is granting the correct credit for the work done. This means that reducing the credit granted is going to be resisted by most of the people crunching it.
Image

UBT - Chris
UBT Contributor
Posts: 601
Joined: Tue Nov 05, 2013 12:00 am

Post by UBT - Chris » Mon Nov 03, 2014 5:29 pm

ahhhhh - i see now - thanks
'UBT - Chris' is my old name - I now crunch as 'CaffeinatedSloth' but I'm still 100% UBT :D
Image
Image

Post Reply